Joined: Sept 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 255 Karma: 4
War and Peace in the Wastes? « Thread Started on Nov 3, 2011, 4:01am »
As far as I've read, no speculation has been drawn toward the political makeup of a post-apocalyptic society. While I do not see national entities as ceasing to exist entirely, control over them would be much more nominal than real. Jurisdictions would no longer be as massive as they once were, nor would powers to police and bring justice be as well received. That being said, leadership could very well regress back to the most ancient method of despotic rule or oligarchic government.
While I would like to believe that the democratic process and republican forms of governance would survive a worldwide catastrophe, I also do not have that great an amount of faith in the human race.
What do you all think? How do you think would civil society operate? Would people establish law based on what has been the social norm for hundreds of years, or do you see mankind falling back on much more ancient practices?
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 2,000 Karma: 44
Re: War and Peace in the Wastes? « Reply #1 on Nov 4, 2011, 10:20pm »
It would depend a lot on the type of apocalypse and the size of the remaining population. In a plague type scenario, I'd expect to see small groups forming and pretty much leaving each other alone. There's not a lot of need to raid or fight if there are enough resources laying around to last decades or even centuries.
With a more violent apocalypse, I'd think you'd end up with groups ruled over by a dictatorial figure, a la Carnegie from Book of Eli. And the people or groups who control the resources would have the power.
Then over time I don't see us returning to Kings and Queens, but it wouldn't surprise me to see some form of serfdom or "protection" customs come back.
Democracy or a representative government only works when there is a low number of armed thugs who are willing to kill to retain power.
May the road gangs never meet you. May the wind be fallout-free. May the sun shine through the ashes, hot rain not fall on thee. And until we meet again, may no one hold your flesh in the palm of their hand.
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 1,888 Location: The Mojave Waste Karma: 23
Re: War and Peace in the Wastes? « Reply #5 on Nov 8, 2011, 4:35am »
I honestly think it will be like the wild west and dark ages thrown together. The man with the gun will make the law, till several guys with guns kill him and make the law. Towns will close in on themselves, maybe cutting themselves off entirely from others and being hostile to outsiders. I think there may be attempts at some form of democracy in the beginning, but most will fall apart from internal or external influences.
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 395 Location: London Karma: 18
Re: War and Peace in the Wastes? « Reply #6 on Nov 10, 2011, 11:08am »
Taking my favourite pandemic senario as a starting point, I think that much will depend on the location of the grouping involved but that the only thing in any sort of 'shortage' will be man-power.
Now initially thats not going to matter much but as the years go on then its going to be essential that people band together in increasing numbers, if only to ensure the genetic health of off-spring along with being able to ensure enough specialisation so that we can train a new generation of Doctors, Vets and so on.
And that a system of Government will be part of that attraction.
I think that in the West we have all grown up with the notion of one man one vote as being an accepted universal right and that whilst there might be dictatorships that spring up ultimately we would resort back to a recognisable democratic system within a few years
For me what will be more interesting is how we get a judical system up and running as well because I think that will have to be a reflection of the political structure as well. I actually think that in the US you will have an advantage because you have a codified bill of rights and a constitution which could easily be adopted where as here in the UK, well lets just say that we have very little actually written down in terms of what is and what is not legal. Its all about tradition and interperation and that could confuse things a lot.
Joined: Sept 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 255 Karma: 4
Re: War and Peace in the Wastes? « Reply #7 on Nov 10, 2011, 6:16pm »
One aspect forgotten is the criminal element. They exist and operate outside of the law, often control the trade of illicit and illegal goods, and have no qualms with using others as a means to gaining what they want. Of course, some of these types have more subtle ways. But realistically speaking, while many institutions are falling apart and individuals try to defend those they love, these organizations will likely keep their operations going with the knowledge that they will be able to set themselves up as a middleman between survivor and survival. Essentially, they could establish their own twisted form of government based on a platform of allegiance that is bought.
One aspect forgotten is the criminal element. They exist and operate outside of the law, often control the trade of illicit and illegal goods, and have no qualms with using others as a means to gaining what they want. Of course, some of these types have more subtle ways. But realistically speaking, while many institutions are falling apart and individuals try to defend those they love, these organizations will likely keep their operations going with the knowledge that they will be able to set themselves up as a middleman between survivor and survival. Essentially, they could establish their own twisted form of government based on a platform of allegiance that is bought.
I can see where you are coming from with this but I also believe that the notions that we have of 'organised crime' are at times more a creation of our entertainment industry rather than the reality which is actually a lot more chaotic than people think.
However there are examples of how 'criminal' gangs can play a role.
For example during the break up of Yugoslavia the initial attacks on Sarajevo by the Serbian forces where actually repelled in part due to the actions of the cities criminal gangs. Now this led to problems later on when those same criminal gangs tried to dominate distribution of aid and so on and there was a concerted Government action, during the seige itself, to destroy the hold these gangs had.
Also, and to a much lesser extent or impact, following the riots here in London during the early part of August this year the back-lash against the rioters themselves, in South London, at least was co-ordinated through football hooligan 'firms'. And it was this which seemed to worry the Police as much as the rioters themselves.
If your criminal theory does hold true in a SHTF senario then I actually think the outcome would be a return to Monarchy. The only true criminal enterprises that can ever claim to have any sort of real organisation are those which rely on family and blood ties and whilst us Brits might have the sort of ornate and ceremonial BS that makes the world go all of a flutter never ever forget that its all a consequence of major organised crime.
Our Queen is the ultimate Don. And the British empire was just one massive protection racket.
The US is doing similar today, just with less class and less pretence.
Joined: Sept 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 255 Karma: 4
Re: War and Peace in the Wastes? « Reply #10 on Nov 13, 2011, 6:27am »
The thing I am most afraid of (and this may be veering off topic) is when some disaster or cataclysmic event forces the world to reset itself, is when some scumbag who was able to maintain and pass on written history will change certain facts to fit what he wants others to believe. While I understand that this has already been done since history could be recorded, we live in an era where people are free to dispute, challenge, and prove if evidence is available. Will that be available in the far-flung future, after humanity quite possibly destroys itself?
Re: War and Peace in the Wastes? « Reply #11 on Nov 13, 2011, 9:07am »
I think that a lot of people will want to rely on their government to fix whatever shit's going down, but as things become more chaotic there won't be very much the government could do at all and people could resent them for that. They will want to feel like someone is looking out for them, seems like a good time for another power to rise or something that people will believe can do things the last government couldn't, or smaller groups like towns may just have their own leadership going on. Depending on the apocalypse anyway.
As far as I've read, no speculation has been drawn toward the political makeup of a post-apocalyptic society. While I do not see national entities as ceasing to exist entirely, control over them would be much more nominal than real. Jurisdictions would no longer be as massive as they once were, nor would powers to police and bring justice be as well received. That being said, leadership could very well regress back to the most ancient method of despotic rule or oligarchic government.
While I would like to believe that the democratic process and republican forms of governance would survive a worldwide catastrophe, I also do not have that great an amount of faith in the human race.
What do you all think? How do you think would civil society operate? Would people establish law based on what has been the social norm for hundreds of years, or do you see mankind falling back on much more ancient practices?
This is where I find the HUGE plothole in Fallout games: The organised govt. Granted FO is set like, 200 years in the future, and a lot of people survived in the vaults, I still think human nature would put a SINGLE person in power like tribes. The strongest person or the strongest personality would be put at the head, and he would make decisions for the group and the group would listen to him/her. (Although I doubt there'd be a female political leader. This coming from a girl.)
I'm not saying it's impossible for a diplomatic society to form, and I think "The Enclave" would still exist in some form (American Govt remnants) and they would want to take charge, but I don't think the people who'd have the survival know-how to get through a situation like that would welcome them with open arms. I mean, would you? I know if I survived a nuclear attack that my govt failed to prevent, I wouldn't be ecstatic when they came knocking on my shanty to collect taxes.
There's no greater feeling in the world than to watch as your creations grow and become mature. Anything from art, to vegetables, to children, it's the greatest feeling in the world to just stand back and have confidence when you say; "I made that."
I'm not saying it's impossible for a diplomatic society to form, and I think "The Enclave" would still exist in some form (American Govt remnants) and they would want to take charge, but I don't think the people who'd have the survival know-how to get through a situation like that would welcome them with open arms. I mean, would you? I know if I survived a nuclear attack that my govt failed to prevent, I wouldn't be ecstatic when they came knocking on my shanty to collect taxes.
Fair points but ignoring the very real fact that eventually, if the human race is to survive, then people will need to band together in the sort of numbers that would make a form of Government an absolute must and this would include some form of taxation and law enforcement, along with recognising property rights and so on.
Aint no point in surviving a SHTF senario if you are merely delaying the demise of humanity as opposed to playing an active role in getting it re-established again, even if you think it will just repeat the same mistakes.
Joined: May 2012 Gender: Female Posts: 93 Location: California, USA Karma: 5
Re: War and Peace in the Wastes? « Reply #14 on Jun 7, 2012, 7:53pm »
I agree, wholeheartedly. There needs to be a governing power at work, otherwise people become feral and just start taking what they want from weaker individuals until there are no people farming crops or herding cattle. Raiding can only last as long as there are people to raid from. The only real point I was trying to make was that there would need to be a certain sense of comfort and familiarity with the powers that wish to take over government, should they expect me or any other well-prepared survivalist, and start taxing and developing property rights. I'd love to be a part of some kind of post-shtf rebuilding project, and is kind of half the reason I practice certain schooling subjects.
There's no greater feeling in the world than to watch as your creations grow and become mature. Anything from art, to vegetables, to children, it's the greatest feeling in the world to just stand back and have confidence when you say; "I made that."
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