Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 393 Location: London Karma: 18
Tipping point. « Thread Started on Nov 7, 2011, 12:13pm »
Had this discussion in another post-apoc forum in the past but thought it worthy of revival again because, well its how I pass my winter nights in !
What would be the point, in a variety of post-apoc senarios, in which the rules of law and order break down ?
For example when would property rights cease to exist ? When would you be legimately able to loot and so on ? What line has to be crossed ?
Personally I think it would happen when the system for disposing of the dead breaks down. As soon as a society is unable to organise the disposal of corpses then I reckon all bets are off.
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 490 Location: Arizona Karma: 25
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #1 on Nov 7, 2011, 8:23pm »
When the grid goes down for a month and people are getting hungry. People get hungry, they get pissed and things get ugly. I've talked to several cops who've said that when things get really bad, they are staying home - all of them said they'd stay on the job as long as possible, but when it really got bad, they'd stay home to protect their families. Who wouldn't? At that point, all bets are off.
tistine is a troll. No matter what you say, he will find a way to ridicule it. I encourage everyone to simply boycott him. Witness the responses I got from him. He's not worth the effort.
When the grid goes down for a month and people are getting hungry. People get hungry, they get pissed and things get ugly. I've talked to several cops who've said that when things get really bad, they are staying home - all of them said they'd stay on the job as long as possible, but when it really got bad, they'd stay home to protect their families. Who wouldn't? At that point, all bets are off.
I would agree that things could, in the wrong set of circumstances, go a lot worse a lot quicker than people might think.
Joined: Sept 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 105 Karma: 1
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #3 on Nov 8, 2011, 5:03pm »
I think civilisation would be gone in a heartbeat to be honest. A lot would depend on the circumstances of the collapse though, but I believe law, order and civilisation is a thin veneer. Take these away, and its those who are strongest call the shots. And thats why democracy, with all its faults, is worth fighting for.
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 558 Location: Australia Karma: 24
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #4 on Nov 8, 2011, 5:58pm »
I tend to think that modern civilization has made most of us in the Western world, incredibly lazy. We will quite happily sit back and wait for the government/police/fire & rescue etc. etc. to come and save our arse.
The problem is, most modern organizations no longer keep the kind of storage they once did. So rather than a local corner store keeping a months worth of stock in the backroom, they keep two or three days worth and they rely on numerous small deliveries during the week to keep the shelves full.
Once the SHTF in any way and the transport system stops, those numerous small deliveries will stop and the shops will run out of supplies before the week is up (obviously a larger shop like a supermarket can last a bit longer due to sheer volume of goods on the shelf).
Like Morg said, when people start to go hungry, they'll start to get angry and they'll go looting to get something to eat. Anything else they grab on the way will just be a bonus for them. The local authority may be able to contain such a situation in a few suburbs or even an entire town but in a city of say 2 million people that has found itself without any form of resupply I believe the rules of civilization will be broken very quickly.
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 558 Location: Australia Karma: 24
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #5 on Nov 8, 2011, 6:36pm »
And further to my post, here's an article that discusses exactly the sort of thing I mentioned. Note that the gas referenced in the article is natural gas/LPG. A fair number of businesses in New Zealand uses LPG for heating water, cooking and so on so once that supply is interrupted, LOTS of places suffer. http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/shelves-empty-gas-crisis-drags-4485945
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 393 Location: London Karma: 18
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #6 on Nov 9, 2011, 5:09pm »
I think that if the UK government could keep the TV stations on the air and churning out shite like 'X factor' or similar shite then the general populace would probably be quite happy to put with any and everything from pandemics to full scale alien invasions.
Take away the antics of a bunch of talentless wannabe pop stars and then maybe people might start taking to the streets but until then no worries.
Seriously, here in the UK we are on the verge of a major European financial crisis and all people seem to care about is some coke sniffing div who just got thrown off some dumb TV show.
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 1,884 Location: The Mojave Waste Karma: 23
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #7 on Nov 13, 2011, 4:34am »
It's the same way here, people would rather hear about the latest scandal than that the countries going in the crapper fast. Ever time there is a scare people swarm the grocery stores in a mad hurry to buy supplies. We only react to things that are right in front of us, though I think the fact you all are actively thinking about what could happen is a step in the right direction.
Joined: Jun 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 81 Location: Clarksville, TN, USA Karma: 1
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #8 on Nov 17, 2011, 9:07pm »
Exactly. The majority of the population will have a huge kneejerk reaction, and cram into the nearest stores, gas stations, and any other form of supply chain. People will start fighting each other right then and there. Hell, people have killed each other over the initial release of a new video game console. Just imagine the break of an apocalyptic threat or SHTF scenario.
Best thing to do is obviously discuss the what-ifs, and necessary preparations. Then, of course, is to prepare!
Over time, further into a post-apocalyptic existence, those who made it through the initial stages will probably adhere to a form of government or law, even if it technically didn't exist. I say that because lots of people don't ideally want to leave their "comfort zone", and attempt to live their lives like they did before, when there was law and order. But that would eventually sink as well, driven by famine and thirst (as mentioned before in another post), and THEN we would face another breaking point.
Oh, is it obvious that I've thought about this stuff before? o_O
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 182 Location: England Karma: 8
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #9 on Nov 24, 2011, 9:56am »
It's going to take a hell of a lot simply because so many people are set in their ways and are now scared of any type of comfrontation. For an entire 1st world country, even a small one to be entirely engulfed in chaos there would have to either be an extreme war or an even more extreme economic collapse.
I think that if the UK government could keep the TV stations on the air and churning out shite like 'X factor' or similar shite then the general populace would probably be quite happy to put with any and everything from pandemics to full scale alien invasions.
Take away the antics of a bunch of talentless wannabe pop stars and then maybe people might start taking to the streets but until then no worries.
Seriously, here in the UK we are on the verge of a major European financial crisis and all people seem to care about is some coke sniffing div who just got thrown off some dumb TV show.
This too. People are also simply too lazy, when there is the option to sit in and do nothing, that's normally the one that will be picked. It's the reason this country (or any other) probably wont see any great, positive change in our lifetimes.
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #10 on Dec 8, 2011, 3:15pm »
I think panic can come from a disease. Look at what panic swine flue and Avion flue and all those killer bugs that never became killer caused. Know just think if a real killer bug endemic happened.
Joined: Sept 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 255 Karma: 4
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #11 on Dec 9, 2011, 8:24am »
Judging by how easily hype can send whole parts of the world into a frenzy, I'd say it is doubly a blessing and a curse. Influenza killed untold thousands each year, yet the most we treat one another with is a reminder to get a shot for it. In the west where access to a vaccine is simple, affordable, and an altogether assumed form of absolute protection, we think nothing of it. However, it is completely the opposite for many without that same access. However, a strain that is out of character will provide an opportunity for journalists who reap their greatest rewards off of the fear of others. This culture of mass media following sickness in such a pronounced manner could be rooted in the 1918-1920 case. Because of the War, many nations involved created a media blackout out of fear that morale would drop. Spain, as a neutral nation, did not maintain any form of censorship of the kind and allowed word to spread.
Nearly thirty percent of the world's population was infected; three to seven percent died. Its occurrence was documented globally. The comeback of the very same H1N1 strain that killed up to one hundred million people seemed nearly apocalyptic, though many disregard the medical advances that have been made since then. It is this sort of connection that makes it such a popular item. That, and a lot of enterprising individuals see nothing but greenbacks when some new pandemic is spreading. Taking advantage of someone's worries is definitely a way to pull a profit.
As someone who lived through H1N1 Swine Flu (which I unceremoniously call 'Pig AIDS') I can safely say that with the exception of more pronounced excretion from both ends, it is quite similar to standard flu. I do believe that it significantly damaged my otherwise great immune system, but I like to think that I survived without significant injury.
Joined: Sept 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 255 Karma: 4
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #13 on Dec 12, 2011, 3:18am »
Yes, and the way I got it was completely ironic. After spending two months going along the coast of South America and stopping in ports in Panama, Chile, Ecuador, and Mexico, I'd managed to avoid getting it. Yet, almost the very hour we pull into Long Beach, I come down with terrible symptoms. It was very uncool.
Joined: Dec 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 6 Location: UK Karma: 0
Re: Tipping point. « Reply #14 on Dec 12, 2011, 8:27pm »
Sorry if this is obvious, but...
The tipping point has to be belief. In the same way that a bank can be destroyed if enough account holders cease to believe in the solvency of the bank. Without that fundamental belief that they can get their cash any time they like, they'll all decide they have to do it right now, starting a run on the bank that fulfills their own doubts...
I reckon it can happen to society, too. The only difference is that governments have a way to fight back - force. They can strengthen the belief in the efficacy of society by beating and shooting people. And the more stress there is on society, they more they'll have to do it to keep control.
(the UK police faced this in August - a large number of people suddenly thinking they could behave as they liked without any comeback from society, sparking the worst riots in a generation. And that was sparked by a single police shooting, rather than an apocalyptic event. The legal system then spasmed in backlash, working round the clock to sentence the rioters as harshly as possible. As if they were trying to prove them wrong...)
Once people start to believe that society can no longer protect them - then society has begun to cease to exist. Especially if (as noted above) the police and emergency services believe the same thing. Once society demonstrably fails to function or defend against a threat, it's in serious trouble.
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