Governments of Emergence « Thread Started on Jul 24, 2012, 2:46am »
What would be the ideal type of government in TEOTWAWKI for your followers? What would be the most efficient and what would be most prevalent? Or what other types would there be?
Choose your Government
Anarchy
Anything that resembles order is burned, beaten with a mallet, stomped on, ripped to shreds, and used as fertillizer. Keep your camcorder safe in this government.
Despotism-
you are the absolute ruler. Anything you say goes. Works for small populations. But when you become weaker, grow unpopular, or die, someone else will take your place, probably through one of those sacred duals to determinte the fate of a society, like an intense staring contest.
Tribal Council-
Chieftains of several different tribes gather in war council in times of distress and elect their war leader. Separate when threat is over.
Feudalism-
Tired of your farmlands getting ravaged by bandits? Owe vassalage to nearby Count. Then your lord becomes weaker, feel free to switch loyalties or subdue him to take his place. Daughters make great tokens for alliances through strategic marriage.
Monarchy-
There is one absolute ruler, you! When you die, your son will take your place. It is good to be king. No one will dare denounce you in public, but if you screw up your head will be under a guilotine.
Constitutional Monarchy-
You are a relatively absolute ruler, but you cant do certain stuff written on a certain piece of paper signed by some lords who dont want to be taxed so much. But hey! your son still ascends the throne!
Oligarchy-
Rule by the few. A small elite group holds all the power and wealth. You are a figurehead but hey! you wont go hungry!
Confederation-
A loose alliance of different communities headed by a single ruler, but really the individual communities have all the power. You dont even get paid to be their president. Nothing much gets done.
Fascism-
Lots of things get done, and fast. In Civilization 3, its also the most popular government for FUTURE scenarios because you can slave your citizens to rush projects and theres little room for discontent. Dont see why it'll be much different in PA.
Communism
Would be a popular rallying cry for revolutions in a PA world, for people tired of Oligarchy and huge gaps between the rich and poor.
Democratic-Republic
Many societies will call themselves a republic, but actually its just a disguise for oligarchy, totalitarianism, and dictatorship. Best for communities with a population between 3 and 15.
Theocracy
Especially after Apocalypse, many people will now look towards divinity for refuge and answers. It would be a piece of cake to preach that TEOTWAWKI is actually a message from the Divine and that everyone needs to put their faith in YOU to lead them to salvation.
note: not intended to offend any particular group, party, or to induce unpleasent responses.
« Last Edit: Jul 24, 2012, 3:13am by mountedantman »
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 393 Location: London Karma: 18
Re: Governments of Emergence « Reply #1 on Jul 24, 2012, 1:34pm »
Firstly, fantastic OP. Admire the effort
As to the question itself, well I guess its all about the scenario. Taking my own little pandemic favourite then my guess is that you effectively get, at least initially, government by committee. I would assume that strong leadership would emerge but that ultimately it would boil down to a perhaps even a more direct form of democracy. People in the West are used to voting and see it as a right and I think that it will eventually make a strong come-back.
I tend to be a lot more optimistic about human nature than most fans of the genre and my predictions are based very much on a British POV and assuming that people have a few years worth of supplies and so on to afford them the luxury of being able to get back to a form of democratic rule.
However the one thing I am sure of is that people will need to merge into bigger and bigger groups. They could remain in smaller communities for the first few years but eventually they would have to join up to ensure the genetic mix that would enable humanity to flourish again.
Joined: Jun 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 81 Location: Clarksville, TN, USA Karma: 1
Re: Governments of Emergence « Reply #2 on Jul 25, 2012, 8:13am »
Well, what I have in mind for my SHTF community is more of a military approach than trying to operate as a government. This is more for a slightly larger community, like 10 or 15 people and up.
I'll step up and take head of the whole community (ie like a Captain or 1SG). I'll have a second-in-command as well. I'll have the community broken up into 'squads', according to their skill sets: medical (doctors, RNs, etc), mechanical (people with mechanical experience), food service (cooks, farmers)... you get the idea. Each of those squads will have a person in charge of their particular operations.
I actually planned on typing out a much more elaborate, detailed document on Word describing what I had in mind. I have a lot of ideas for it, which I believe would work well, when the situation permits. I'll share it when I'm done.
Well, what I have in mind for my SHTF community is more of a military approach than trying to operate as a government. This is more for a slightly larger community, like 10 or 15 people and up.
I'll step up and take head of the whole community (ie like a Captain or 1SG). I'll have a second-in-command as well. I'll have the community broken up into 'squads', according to their skill sets: medical (doctors, RNs, etc), mechanical (people with mechanical experience), food service (cooks, farmers)... you get the idea. Each of those squads will have a person in charge of their particular operations.
Is this something you have drawn up for potential real world use or is this more for a novel or something you are writing?
If real world, I'm wondering where you are finding these people to handle the different roles in your ideal community?
I'm also wondering about the numbers. I mean, first you say that this plan, such as it is, is designed for a group of 10-15 people. Ok, let's run with that and use 15 as the magic number.
Taking yourself out of the equation, since you're generously donating your time and effort to be the leader, that leaves 14 people. Subtract your second in command and you're left with 13 people.
Out of that 13 people, you are planning to have "squads" as you call them.
Medical Mechanical Food Service Security (I presume, though not mentioned) Sanitation (again, presumed)
That right there is five squads. That means you'll average 2.6 people for each squad. You also mention you'll have one person in charge of each squad. So, a squad leader and one other person in each squad? Further to this point, given perhaps another minute or two of thought, I could come up with at least another dozen or so necessary "squads."
Of course, people could double up on their responsibilities, have the food service folks also do sanitation or something. But then you run into possible conflicts. Who's in charge of which people? Meaning, let's say Joey is on both the food service and the sanitation squads. The food service squad leader wants Joey to help with dinner tomorrow night but the sanitation squad leader needs him to be on rubbish burning detail. If it were up to Joey, he'd rather not do either one and instead be part of security. But, alas, Joey almost accidentally shot the security squad leader during training three months ago, which is why he's now doing food and sanitation. So, what's a benevolent leader to do now?
Here's where I'm going with this. First, you are assuming you'll have sufficient people to fill all the roles you feel are necessary. I'm not sure if you already have people committed to such a group or if you are planning to recruit them at some point down the road? Either way, what are YOU offering as any sort of incentive to join/stay with your group?
Do you have any clue what it would take to feed even just 15 people daily? Any plans in place for waste disposal? Where are they all going to live? Do you figure they'll all just tow the line and do what you say without question? What if they don't?
We could sit here and generate a pretty extensive list of desirable occupations or skill sets we'd want to have represented in a post-collapse community. That's the easy part. Doctors, farmers, those with vast homesteading skills, marksmen, the list goes on and on. The harder part, where we separate the men from the boys, so to speak, is figuring out how to keep those folks not only alive but happy.
I'm also wondering about the numbers. I mean, first you say that this plan, such as it is, is designed for a group of 10-15 people. Ok, let's run with that and use 15 as the magic number.
15 is just too small. You need at least 10 x that number to even think of creating a community that stands a chance of anything even approaching long term survival, let alone a quality of life that encourages people to stay.
Look at the skills of say a Doctor. Lets assume you manage to get a Doctor into your group. When they aint doing medical stuff you need them to be training at least two others. And they need to eat so you need people willing to grow food and so on. Ditto with midwives, vets and so on.
You will also want your children to be educated which requires teachers and so on and thats without even touching on the need to make sure the gene pool has enough variety to keep it healthy.
Real leadership is about planting seeds for trees under which you will never sit to enjoy the shade. Its about the total picture.
Joined: Jun 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 81 Location: Clarksville, TN, USA Karma: 1
Re: Governments of Emergence « Reply #5 on Jul 25, 2012, 7:09pm »
You bring some good points; many of which I have already pondered. My post before was obviously very brief because I didn't have the time then to go in depth. I'll reply later tonight when I have the time, though.
Joined: Jun 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 81 Location: Clarksville, TN, USA Karma: 1
Re: Governments of Emergence « Reply #6 on Jul 25, 2012, 8:38pm »
Matov has it right - it's all about the total picture. I'm looking after long-term survival. I'm looking after EVERYONE making the best of the community; everyone contributing to the ultimate goal. My job as the head honcho (and the second in command) would be to make sure everyone is taken care of. It's up to me to come up with reasonable solutions to problems, whatever they may be. If everyone pulls their weight, problems will work out much easier.
Now, yes, looking back, 10-15 people is a bit small for the community "template" that I'm talking about would work. 30, 40, 50+ people... now we're talking. Of course, I realize this may take a long time to reach this point. In a small group (10-15 like we're talking before), I can come up with a much more simple form of leadership until the community builds to that point. If people cooperate, and thrive in a small community setting, based on what I think is good guidance, more people who happen across the community will want to contribute their skills as well.
Again, my vision is long-term survival, and the thriving and evolution of a strong, established community.
I know there will be potentially dozens of squads, based on skill sets and needs. There is a way to consolidate a lot of them into larger groups. Examples: Engineering (construction workers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers all can fit in this), Food Services (cooking/preparation, storage, disposal), Maintenance (mechanics, generator repair, utility/equipment repair) Weapon Services (weapons maintenance/repair, ammo management, reloading), Medical (goes without saying), Home Services (tailoring/clothing, child care and education) and so on. It wouldn't be too difficult to consolidate relatively close fields into their perspective groups.
As far as security and marksmanship - I would try to test everyone's abilities on their perspective weapons, and then assemble security squads. The best of the best can train those others that aren't as capable. Everyone will have different skill levels on different weapons, so spreading out these squads and have them train others will help diversify fighting skills across the board. Of course, ammo would be limited, so I would have them get as much training as they can, with as little ammo waste as possible.
Food Gathering and Scavenging would be a universal task set. For food gathering - I would assemble a squad of 3 or 4 able-bodied hunters, and send them out on a quest for 2 or 3 days to hunt and gather as much meat as they can. I would send them out with a makeshift cart of sorts, so they can easily transport the meat back. I'd have scavenger groups come and go fairly frequently, looking for anything of use out there. These wouldn't be the same people each time - everyone who is fairly skilled at hunting and with their weapon would get cycled.
Security would also consist of scout squads - a couple of people sent out to scout areas (people who are good about maintaining stealth and tact of course; I wouldn't send Cody the Klutz out on a recon mission). They can bring back reports of any activity, or any info on the landscape that isn't already known about, etc.
I would survey and determine who would be the best squad leader for each squad, according to their profession and skills. They would train those underneath them. Thus begins a healthy survival cycle, as long as everyone cooperates. If anyone has their heart set on living on, I think they would generally cooperate.
To answer your question - what could I personally contribute? I have mechanical skills (automotive, some diesel), and metalworking and welding skills. I'm also a musician, which would help morale. I'm not saying that I would simply do nothing but crack the whip - I would definitely lend a helping hand myself if need be. Mechanical and welding skills would be very valuable when SHTF.
I feel like this post is still somewhat skimming my whole train of thought with this. This is why I feel like I should type everything out into a doc. But I think I hit most of the major points here.
I'm also wondering about the numbers. I mean, first you say that this plan, such as it is, is designed for a group of 10-15 people. Ok, let's run with that and use 15 as the magic number.
15 is just too small.
First of all, thank you all for your comprehensive replies. And thank you for the detailed comments that will be of much help for a fiction Im working on.
Well, when i said 15, I only meant it for Democratic-Republic as a satire, trying to say that with larger numbers, it may just degrade into another form of dictatorship( so good number for democracy would be a small and odd number). But for all the other governments, im thinking about hundreds, and even thousends. For Tribal Council, it may as well be ten thousend, given theres 20 tribes with 500 each, united only at times of war. Also for feudalism, there may be dozens of counties with varied number of serfs in each manor, united through common vassalege of a dynasties.
Im predicting that In the beginning there would be coalition of neighborhoods, with only dozens of people each. Then they will evolve into tribes with single respected leaders, Then, through alliances or unions, or conquests and annexation, the societies will merge into kingdoms(monarchies), republics(democratic-republics), theocracies (led by a prophet) and so on. Then history will repeat to a certain extent, with wars of unification, wars over religious fundamentalism, revolutions for democracy, wars over whether you eat an egg with the pointy side down or flat side down, wars over Shell and BP gas stations, later the oilfields and industrial complexes and harbors. Its the growth and complexation of the societies that interest me. What about you?
BTW vhyle, wis you luck on that Doc file you said youre working on. Please allow me the pleasure of having a glimpse at it when you're done!
And also, to answer some of the questions of necessities, this is what I thought of so far. Please give feedback if you have anything to add or change.
Basically, you need to start farming potatoes and beans ASAP along with some garden vegetables so you dont have to become cannibals beforeo your storm cellar runs dry. Untill harvest, hopefully make do with hunting geese and raiding groceries and foraging in empty houses.
Then the problem of human waste. At first, its not a problem because the toilets will flush as long as you refill the water box in the back, which can be done wit river water if available. But later, it will be better to collect waste and use them as fertillizer.
For fresh water, I have thought of trying to dig wells by finding aquifers via dowsing. It seems to work......I've tried it myself but im still skeptical. Drinking from the river is not an option cuz you get hookworms.
Also the main incentive to stay in the community at first would be prospect for food and protection. The incentive for work would be to eat. First, you cant ge much complicated, since you get same rations, but as the society gets more complex, there will be some changes, such as the second market revolution and use of backed currency.
As indivudual societies would become specialized (Fishing, Farming, Herding, Salt making For "squads" I have thought of largly
Supplies Defense Technology Agriculture Transportation/Mechanics Medicine
I think there will be a couple sub-squads like culinary and energy and military training.
For sustainable weapons, I think crossbows and bows would suit well, cuz u can even make your own bows and arrows out of bamboo and carmetal. Plus, you can train with them for years without having to worry about ammo.
« Last Edit: Jul 26, 2012, 10:14am by mountedantman »
Joined: Sept 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 200 Karma: 9
Re: Governments of Emergence « Reply #8 on Jul 26, 2012, 10:22am »
I appreciate you expanding a bit on your ideas but I still have questions.
From where are you getting all these people to join your group? You've put together a great "want" list for candidates but I'm wondering how you plan to fill those slots?
What do you do about those who want to join your group but have no "marketable" skills? Or appear to have unpleasant personality traits? For example, let's say you happen to find someone who was a physician, a family practitioner, but he's almost violently racist. Do you accept him into your group because of his skills and overlook his bigotry?
You mention sending out hunting parties to obtain meat. Ok, not a bad idea on the surface but again, do you have any understanding of what it will take to feed a group of 20, 40, 50+? Sure, gardens can be planted but the food doesn't grow overnight. And what if the crops the first year fail?
Aside from the group being your idea, how are you better qualified than any other group member to lead?
How are you equipping all these people with the necessary gear and supplies to perform their assigned duties? Not just firearms and ammo but shovels, seeds, tools, etc.. Surely you cannot be relying strictly upon scavenging to find everything you'll need.
How are major decisions made for the group? Are you the sole authority or is there a committee of some sort? Here in the U.S., we have three branches of government -- Executive, Judicial, Legislative. In theory anyway, each branch has their own distinct duties, the combination of which forms our government. How are those roles going to be assigned in your group? Who makes the laws? Who enforces them? How are they enforced?
vhyle, please understand that I'm not really picking on you. Rather, the idea of community creation both now and post-collapse is something of great interest to me.
Rather, the idea of community creation both now and post-collapse is something of great interest to me.
Hey jimpi, are you writing or planning to do some sort of creation of post apocalyptic fiction? You pose very importan questions, many of those I have not thought about, like people with antisocial personalities.
First off, I think many houses have their own gear, some more concentrated on certain areas like gardening, fishing, car mechanics, etc than others. Anything more needed are free at Wal Mart
It would be very nice for me and others interested to have a mindset of the scale of food consumed for a group of hundred. Im estimating with a 1000ish calorie based diet with a meal of a scoop of rice and scoop of soup 3 times a day or its equivalent with respect to occasional beef jerkey or cereals, etc, 1 person will consume one large sack of rice( like 10 kg ones ) and 20 cans of soup or its equal in other forms in one month give or take. So for a group of 100 to survive 6 months, it would take 600 10kg sacks of rice and 300 boxes with 40 cans of soup each. This is a rough estimate and I will probably eat dandilion, roast grubs to complement the nutrition. By then, hopefully you would have a golf course full of potatoes, soybeans, tomatoes, and eggplant. Potatoes last during winter especially and soybeans are also good for storage. This is a realllyy rough estimate, and probably impractical. can anyone give me someting along the lines?
You are right, it takes 5-6 months minimum for potatoes or beans to grow, and even longer for grains. The major setback would be GMO grains in conventional store, which will hinder reproduction. Thats where Whole Foods will be valuable...to those aware of GMO at least. The meat hunting will be very minimal, but in a park near where i live flocks of geese come and go frequently ( though they will soon leave when they see their family get killed). The bulk of the food will be in the form of rice sacks and cans of soup that one would find by chance left in some isolated warehouse or have to fight to obtain it.
Thats where the leadership comes in. If you can organize a party to seize a food source, you are the provider. Even if you didnt obtain it all by yourself. Also, one of the rules of social psychology is group polarization and the fact that in times of extreme distress, people are more open to follow someone who offers a solution, no matter how simple. Of course, when the threat has passed ( marauders, starvation) there will be calls for Democracy, Coup d'etats, Revolutions, Civil War, Sucession of Throne, direct election of new chieftain, Nomination of new Caliph etc. Depending on the types of governments listed above.
Basically at some point there will be a concensus, and people will write down their skills and be assigned to specific departments. The less favorable ones like compost managers will be compensated with reduced work time. Everyone witout specific skills will be drafted to the fields where much plowing would be done, followed by seeding, weeding, irrigation, and eventually harvest. Basically the Agricultural sector would take up 60 percent of total labor force just to be safe. 25% would be various adaptation of technologies, mechanics, education etc, while the 15% would be distributed to full time military and administration. During full scale wars, most of the conscripts will come from the 60% led by the full time millitary personnel officiers. Of course, for such a systematic hierarchy, you would need at least over 500 people to run. Anything less than that would be a mixture of multitasking individuals, like EVERYONE swarming to the fields during planting and harvesting seasons. And Everyone will be taking arms to defend or conquer.
Like I explained before, in the beginnng I suspect there be smal groups of survivors on each street. Then they will either merge or hungry wandering passerbys will either try to pillage them or join them, depending on their sizes.
« Last Edit: Jul 26, 2012, 11:44am by mountedantman »
Rather, the idea of community creation both now and post-collapse is something of great interest to me.
Hey jimpi, are you writing or planning to do some sort of creation of post apocalyptic fiction? You pose very importan questions, many of those I have not thought about, like people with antisocial personalities.
I do have some vague plans to tackle fiction writing at some point. For now though, I concentrate my efforts on the non-fiction side of things. Thus, the links in my signature line below.
I have many years of experience in personnel management and leadership, so a lot of the questions I ask are based on what I know from real world experience, albeit only tangentially related to any sort of post-collapse community.
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First off, I think many houses have their own gear, some more concentrated on certain areas like gardening, fishing, car mechanics, etc than others. Anything more needed are free at Wal Mart
Always assuming someone else hasn't gotten to those sources first.
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It would be very nice for me and others interested to have a mindset of the scale of food consumed for a group of hundred. Im estimating with a 1000ish calorie based diet with a meal of a scoop of rice and scoop of soup 3 times a day or its equivalent with respect to occasional beef jerkey or cereals, etc, 1 person will consume one large sack of rice( like 10 kg ones ) and 20 cans of soup or its equal in other forms in one month give or take. So for a group of 100 to survive 6 months, it would take 600 10kg sacks of rice and 300 boxes with 40 cans of soup each.
1000 calories a day isn't anywhere close. For the active lifestyle survivors will need to engage in by necessity, you're talking 2500-3000 calories a day for adults.
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This is a rough estimate and I will probably eat dandilion, roast grubs to complement the nutrition. By then, hopefully you would have a golf course full of potatoes, soybeans, tomatoes, and eggplant. Potatoes last during winter especially and soybeans are also good for storage. This is a realllyy rough estimate, and probably impractical. can anyone give me someting along the lines?
Again, what does your group do in the time before crops come in or if the first year of crops do poorly? Bear in mind too that depending on the calamity, growing crops may not even be an option, or at least not very feasible. For example, if it were a situation where the Yellowstone caldera blew, the resulting ash fall would likely result in something akin to a mini-Ice Age for several years.
Also, you'd need adequate quantities of heirloom seeds to even start the process. Places like Walmart often don't sell heirloom seeds or if they do, it is in very small quantities and either way, they only stock them during the spring and summer.
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The meat hunting will be very minimal, but in a park near where i live flocks of geese come and go frequently ( though they will soon leave when they see their family get killed).
Depending again on the nature of the disaster and the number of survivors, many forests and such will be hunted out rather quickly.
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Thats where the leadership comes in. If you can organize a party to seize a food source, you are the provider. Even if you didnt obtain it all by yourself.
That sounds dangerously close to a "warlord" mentality.
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Basically at some point there will be a concensus, and people will write down their skills and be assigned to specific departments.
Assigned? What if they don't want to work in those specific departments? How do you handle discontent within your group?
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The less favorable ones like compost managers will be compensated with reduced work time.
So, let's say Bob is assigned to work in sanitation and is given a reduced work load because the duties are seen as undesirable. Ok, but what if Susie, who is assigned to work plowing fields and weeding, finds those duties to be not to her liking at all and feels it is unfair that Bob only has to work 5 hours a day when she has to spend 9 or 10 hours breaking her back in the hot sun?
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During full scale wars, most of the conscripts will come from the 60% led by the full time millitary personnel officiers.
War against who? You're jumping the gun here quite a bit. In your example here, you've already amassed a community of several hundred people, somehow feeding them and keeping them reasonably happy. Dial it back a few notches first. How do you get there from point A (the disaster and immediate aftermath)?
Re: Governments of Emergence « Reply #11 on Jul 27, 2012, 2:29am »
Yeah well, the post apocalypic world is not what you would call happyland. After a pandemic, most of the population will die. Then most of whose left will die of starvation and dehydration. then many of the remaining survivors will die fighting each other for what supplies are left, then people will start killing to barbecue each other, then still more will die of starvation when the supplies are gone and people were stupid enough to no grow anything, and more will die from those people who farmed but unfortunately there were some locusts or drought, then more die from fighting over harvested crops, then the last remaining people will die from having scary nightmares about big red clowns with sharp teeth. Tough world
It's true what you say, and theres basically zero chance of PA survival if it all of your worst come worst conditions are met, and I appreciate your attacks on certain loose ends, but it would be nice to hear some of what you have thought of, any solutions or ideas, instead of simply being demanded the answers.
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2012, 2:36am by mountedantman »
Yeah well, the post apocalypic world is not what you would call happyland. After a pandemic, most of the population will die. Then most of whose left will die of starvation and dehydration. then many of the remaining survivors will die fighting each other for what supplies are left, then people will start killing to barbecue each other, then still more will die of starvation when the supplies are gone and people were stupid enough to no grow anything, and more will die from those people who farmed but unfortunately there were some locusts or drought, then more die from fighting over harvested crops, then the last remaining people will die from having scary nightmares about big red clowns with sharp teeth. Tough world
What you seem to be describing is a cosy catastrophe. This is a term coined by author Brian Aldiss to describe a fictional scenario in which a large percentage of the population has perished for one reason or another, leaving a small intrepid band of survivors to take advantage of the remaining resources.
The reality is, a pandemic is about the only end of the world scenario I can envision in which a significant portion of the population would die and yet there would be little immediate effect on available resources. However, even then the pandemic would have to be almost lightning quick. Otherwise, the resources would diminish substantially due to hoarding, waste, and riots.
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It's true what you say, and theres basically zero chance of PA survival if it all of your worst come worst conditions are met, and I appreciate your attacks on certain loose ends, but it would be nice to hear some of what you have thought of, any solutions or ideas, instead of simply being demanded the answers.
I'm not demanding anything from you or anyone else. What I'm trying to do is shed light on issues that are often overlooked, whether in a novel or in a real world planning session. Look, I've been at this a long time and have had discussions on topics like this countless times. The fact is, all too many people concentrate on the "fun" stuff like scavenging, security patrols, and being the de facto leader of some sort of community that seems to have been created out of whole cloth and just comes into being at the drop of a hat.
The thing is, the problems are pretty much universal but the solutions much less so. Everything is contingent upon your individual situation, the size of your group, location, and available resources.
Rarely do people address basic issues like sanitation. Let's say your community consists of 100 people. The average bowel movement is about a pound, give or take. So, that's roughly 100lbs of solid waste every day being generated. Where are you going with all of it? Burning it might be an option. Using it as compost is a great idea, provided it is done properly (i.e. the raw matter isn't just dumped on the crops). No matter what, you can't just let it sit around as that is a sure fire invitation to disease. If you're on city sewer, once the waste treatment plant ceases operation, it won't take long for the pipes to back up. Septic tanks aren't going to stay empty forever either.
As for feeding the troops, as I've mentioned several times here, planning on vast gardens isn't enough, nor is hunting going to reliably provide nearly enough for a group of 30, let alone 100+.
You'll need to store sufficient quantities of heirloom seeds to provide for at least two, preferably three, growing seasons. The produce obtained from these gardens will need to processed in such a way to preserve all seeds for future use. In the interim, you'll need to have long-term food storage plans in place to provide nourishment for your people while the crops are growing.
Think about how much space it would take to store enough food for even 30 people for a full year. That's a lot of food.
1000 calories a day is a starvation diet. Remember, your people are going to be working hard every single day and they'll be burning a ton of calories. Rice and beans 3X a day isn't going to cut it. You need greens and fruits so as to avoid scurvy. Good quality multi-vitamins can help bridge that gap, but they won't last forever.
Have you ever gone hunting? Ever been hunting with someone who has never hunted before? If so, you know how incredibly frustrating that can be. Now, imagine going into a forest full of idiots like that.
The only really reliable way to provide meat for a group like we're discussing is through raising animals like pigs, chickens, cows, goats, sheep, and rabbits. That takes time, work, and resources, all of which you need to plan for ahead of time.
You made mention of using a golf course for growing crops. Is your group going to plow it all by hand? If not, where you going to get the fuel for the tractors? Even if you manage to scrounge enough for the first season, what about the following year(s)? How are you going to secure the growing fields to prevent theft?
What if a member of your group is found to have stolen food from the field or your storage? Today, if I get caught stealing a loaf of bread from a grocery store, at the most I'll receive a ticket for shoplifting, pay a small fine, and be on my way. Post-collapse, stealing food may be a capital offense as it would endanger the health of the group. Exile from the group is a common idea for capital punishment but then you run the risk of having someone who knows the inner workings of your group being "out there" and possibly finding allies to invade your settlement. On the other hand though, would your group be willing and able to execute someone for stealing bread? What other options might you be able to entertain?
I'm not looking to get into a pissing match with anyone, nor put anyone on the defensive. It is just that, like I said, I've been down this road before many, many times and rarely ever do I come across someone who has truly thought it all through. All I'm trying to do is point out the things that are often overlooked.
Also, this thread is just as applicable to authors as it is to those making real world plans. If you want your novel or short story to really shine, you need to think about these issues and come up with solutions. Even if you don't spell those solutions out within the story, the overall novel or whatever will be all the better if you've thought through these issues.
What if a member of your group is found to have stolen food from the field or your storage? Today, if I get caught stealing a loaf of bread from a grocery store, at the most I'll receive a ticket for shoplifting, pay a small fine, and be on my way. Post-collapse, stealing food may be a capital offense as it would endanger the health of the group. Exile from the group is a common idea for capital punishment but then you run the risk of having someone who knows the inner workings of your group being "out there" and possibly finding allies to invade your settlement. On the other hand though, would your group be willing and able to execute someone for stealing bread? What other options might you be able to entertain?
In my own little fictional musing I had a senario in a community in France in which a man is tried and found guilty of negligence of duty (he allowed somebody he was meant to be with go off on his own and he ends up being mauled by a pack of wild dogs). The punishment is a choice between being expelled or else being flogged. He chooses the flogging which is carried out in public.
And I think for this sort of crime of human nature then perhaps something like that would come into force. You will simply not have the resources to jail somebody so I think it has to be either expulsion or something similar to the flogging I came up with.
Something like murder would depend very much on the circumstances much like now but sex crimes would have to be absolute nailed on certainties for capital punishment. Rapists or child molesters have to be dealt with and explusion is moral cowardice.
Joined: Jun 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 81 Location: Clarksville, TN, USA Karma: 1
Re: Governments of Emergence « Reply #14 on Jul 27, 2012, 6:55pm »
I'll reply more in-depth later.
But my scenario is very "what if", and i realize this. I know that there DOZENS of variables to take into consideration, and also dozens more variables that would very much alter my scenario. I have put a lot of thought into it, and there are also other factors that I haven't thought of (thanks to the replies in this thread).
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